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Re: Carpentier male DNA testing Project - Carpenter Cousins
Posted by: John R. Carpenter (ID *****1819) Date: November 04, 2002 at 11:43:56
In Reply to: Carpentier male DNA testing Project - Carpenter Cousins by John R. Carpenter of 88

Dear Robin,

Where were you when we were talking about this in Clearwater, FL last August? You ask the right questions!

There are 4 samples in process and some 17 others saying they are interested in submitting. This is not bad since we are just going "public."

You wrote: "The value of the project will increase dramatically the more participants we have." You are exactly on target. The more samples the better the value of comparisons.

When people sign up on the web page for the test kits, they fill in the basic information. There is a notes section which I encourage all to use. Listing the CE CD RIN number or which branch they come from will really help.

The Group Administrator only has access to this for comparison purposes.

Everyone is given and known as a code number otherwise.

When enough samples are collected we will post using those code numbers.

Those that wish to allow their names to be used will be contacted before we post.

If they are in the CE CD or added later, I encourage them to place the marker codes under a DNA section for future references.

In addition, people who submit samples can opt for being in a general pool. There they will be notified if any one else matches (including non-Carpenters), or closely matches the results. This by E-Mail only.


John R. Carpenter
La Mesa, CA

----- Original Message -----
From: "Robin Carpenter" <>
To: "John R. Carpenter" <>
Sent: Monday, November 04, 2002 7:04 AM
Subject: DNA Project

> Hello John:
> Thanks for the clarifications. Big help.
> It sounds like there are only a very small number of joiners so far.
> (Maybe as few as 4??) Is that right? The value of the project will
> increase dramatically the more participants we have. (If my $169 buys
> 5-or-6 comparisons that's not nearly so valuable as 50-or-60 comparisons for
> the same $169.) So it pays to promote participation strongly. Toward that
> end, I should think the issue of resolving some historically unclear
> relations may be more compelling (to some people) than, e.g., estimating how
> may zillions of generations back we can find a common ancestor
> who is going remain anonymous in any case.
> (Of course, a competing force in this matter is that a substantial number
> of researchers have their own settled notion of who's who and what's
> what--who may have filled-in some "holes" with facts with assumptions of
> their own--and may experience some reluctance about a project that could
> dislodge their conviction.)
> Anyway, here's an idea/question; would it be useful to ask signers-up to
> post their names publicly on the list? This would not help if in fact we
> only have 4-or-5 people (for the perceived value reason cited above.) But
> if we have a good list, and several new participants each week, perhaps
> there could be a bandwagon effect. (On the other hand, we wouldn't want to
> drive people away if they do NOT want to post their name.)
> Robin
> At 03:26 PM 11/3/02 -0800, you wrote:
> >Robin,
> >
> >"It would seem that any two present day Carpenter males would be able to
> >establish a genetic "distance" between them."
> >
> >Correct! If we had a Carpenter descendant from the Rehoboth, MA branch and
> >one from the Providence, RI branch compare samples, they should (barring
> >adoptions, illegettimates, and such) have a common ancestor. This is the
> >current belief. DNA sampling (using the 25 marker test) allows more than a
> >90% accuracy rate over 14 generations to the common ancestor.
> >
> >"Thus, every participant would find a quantifiable "distance" between
> >himself and every other participant. From such a matrix of "distances" I
> >should think it would become quite clear who belongs where in the master
> >tree."
> >
> >Correct! Boy, I wished I could have said this first! This is assuming that
> >all participants have a common male ancestor. Science will confirm, within
> >reason, the DNA-Y matches and correlations.
> >
> >"Finally, does this project offer any possibility for NON-Carpenter
> >linkages?"
> >
> >Yes. You can add your male DNA sample to the common pool for future
> >correlations. Using computer matching, if a male "Clark" matches or closely
> >matches your male DNA-Y results - you will be notified. A release form is
> >needed to place your results (by code number) into a common pool. See the
> >web page below for details.
> >
> >I appreciate the input!
> >
> >John R. Carpenter
> >La Mesa, CA
> >
> >
> >Regarding 12/25 marker DNA- Y tests:
> >... tests the Y chromosome for genetic matches between males. Results are
> >placed in our Y-DNA database and when 2 people show the same identical or
> >near identical results, we will inform both parties if you have both signed
> >the FTDNA Release Form. A perfect match of 25 markers means a lesser number
> >of generations before a Most Common Recent Ancestor (MRCA) can be
> >determined. The customer receives a Certificate & report generally
> >describing Y-DNA sequencing and the meaning of probability between matches.
> >
> >---- Original Message -----
> >From: "Robin Carpenter" <>
> >To: <>
> >Sent: Sunday, November 03, 2002 2:44 PM
> >Subject: DNA
> >
> >
> >>
> >> >Hello John:
> >> > The DNA project sounds great! But help me to understand something....
> >> >
> >> > It seems to me there must be more info to be had from this project
> >than
> >> is being said. It would seem that any two present day Carpenter males
> >would
> >> be able to establish a genetic "distance" between them. That is, my
> >brother
> >> and I would prove to be nearly identical (in this DNA sense), while my
> >> cousin and I would be just a little less similar, 2nd cousins still less
> >> similar, and so on. Thus, every participant would find a quantifiable
> >> "distance" between himself and every other participant. From such a
> >matrix
> >> of "distances" I should think it would become quite clear who belongs
> >where
> >> in the master tree. I realize there are minor random variations so the
> >> inference is imperfect, but wouldn't we expect a pretty clear resolution
> >of
> >> dead ends??
> >> > Take my own case; recall that I have my dead-end Carman Carpenter in
> >> Goshen then Minisink NY. Barring some weird historical quirk that we know
> >> nothing about (e.g., that he moved there from Virginia the year before he
> >> shows up in records, or an illegitimate birth to a Carpenter mother etc),
> >> there are essentially three candidates for his father. If the DNA project
> >> includes descendants from each of those three, mustn't we end up knowing
> >> which line Carman must have been in? (And even if there is some unknown
> >> historical quirk, as above, that should become obvious too.)
> >> > Finally, does this project offer any possibility for NON-Carpenter
> >> linkages? For instance, again with my Carman Carpenter, I've always
> >> suspected either his mother or grandparent would be a Carman. That would
> >be
> >> a very valuable hypothesis to test.
> >> > Robin
> >> >

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