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Re: Genealogy of Catherine Dachsteder (1781-1856)
Posted by: Charles Julian (ID *****7539) Date: April 27, 2006 at 00:26:24
In Reply to: Re: Genealogy of Catherine Dachsteder (1781-1856) by Charles Julian of 187

In an effort to discern something of Philip Jung and Mary's origins I have now researched the people who were present at the christenings of Philip and Mary's two children. Theoretically these four people are the only people in all of Stone Arabia, aside from John Stevens later, who can be directly linked to Philip or Mary. The full records for the baptisms of Philip and Mary's two children, from "Jung Families of the Mohawk Valley" at the Fort Klock website, are as follows ( note that the years given for Elisabeth Young in this document have advanced from 1763/4 to 1764/5 for some reason – I'm unsure as to whether the typo is in this document or in the IGI batch record; Elizabeth Young ( Stevens )'s traditional birthyear is 1764 ):

Infant-Elisabetha; B.-December 12, 1764; Bp.-January 11, 1765; Parents-Philipp Jung and wife, Anna Maria; Sponsors-Elisabeth Franckin and Geo. Henrich Bell.

Infant-Philippus; B.-September 2, 1765; Bp.-September 10, 1765; Parents-Philipp Jung and wife, Anna Maria; Sponsors-Johann Jost Hergheimer Esq. and Catharina.

Now prepare for something truly bizarre. I tracked down these sponsors and here's who they are:

1. Johann Jost Herkimer Esquire – the second most respected man in all of New York State after Sir William Johnson; the father of General Nicholas Herkimer of the American Revolution, and the man for whom Fort Herkimer and ultimately the county of Herkimer itself are named.

2. Catherine ( Petrie ) Herkimer – The wife of Johann Jost Herkimer, the mother of General Nicholas Herkimer.

How did Philip and Mary Jung get Hans Jost Herkimer Esquire as a sponsor for their son, and then the son wasn't even named after him? I immediately thought "Clearly, Mary ___ must be Herkimer's daughter." But on drawing up the Herkimer family tree we find that Anna Maria Herkimer was married to the Reverend Abraham Rosenkranz, not Philip Jung.

------------

JOHANN JOST HERKIMER ( Only surviving son of Johann Georg Herkimer, a Palatine Immigrant )

1 Johann Jost Hercheimer chr. 20 JUN 1700 Sandhausen, Baden, Germany. ( Sponsored for Philip Young and Mary ) ***
. . . + Catherine Petrie Abt 1722. ( Sponsored for Philip Young and Mary ) ***
. . . . . . 2 Gertrude Herkimer b. Abt 1722 NY.
. . . . . . . . . + Rudolph Schumacher
. . . . . . 2 Magdalena Herkimer b. Abt 1724 NY.
. . . . . . . . . + Werner Dygert
. . . . . . 2 Elizabeth Barbara Herkimer b. Abt 1726 NY.
. . . . . . . . . + Peter David Schuyler
. . . . . . 2 Nicholas Herkimer ( General Herkimer, for whom the county is named ) b. Abt 1727 Fort Herkimer, NY.
. . . . . . . . . + Maria Magdalena Dygart
. . . . . . 2 Odelia Herkimer b. Abt 1728 NY.
. . . . . . . . . + Peter Bellinger
. . . . . . 2 Hendrick Herkimer b. Abt 1730 NY.
. . . . . . . . . + Catherine Dygert
. . . . . . . . . . . . 3 Catharina Hercheimer b. 22 SEP 1760, chr. 25 SEP 1760 (RDC).
. . . . . . . . . . . . 3 Georg Hercheimer b. 15 FEB 1763, chr. 27 FEB 1763 (RDC).
. . . . . . . . . . . . 3 Elisabetha Hercheimer b. 03 DEC 1764, chr. 05 DEC 1764 (RDC).
. . . . . . . . . . . . 3 Henricus Hergheimer b. 26 JAN 1767, chr. 11 FEB 1767 (RDC).
. . . . . . . . . . . . 3 Lena Hergheimer b. 07 MAR 1769, chr. 09 MAR 1769 (RDC).
. . . . . . 2 Johann Jost Hercheimer b. Abt 1732 ( Loyalist )
. . . . . . . . . + Maria Van Allen
. . . . . . . . . . . . 3 Georg Hergeimer b. 26 APR 1761, chr. 12 MAY 1761 (RDC).
. . . . . . . . . . . . 3 Arriana Hercheimer b. 11 JUN 1763, chr. 28 JUN 1763 (RDC).
. . . . . . . . . . . . 3 Catharina Hercheimer b. 03 AUG 1765, chr. 07 AUG 1765 (RDC).
. . . . . . . . . . . . 3 Lorentz Hergheimer b. 23 JUL 1767, chr. 30 JUL 1767 (RDC).
. . . . . . . . . . . . 3 Maria Hercheimer b. 06 APR 1769, chr. 13 APR 1769 (RDC).
. . . . . . . . . . . . 3 Johann Nicolaus Hergheimer b. 24 JAN 1771, chr. 27 JAN 1771 (RDC).
. . . . . . 2 Elizabeth Margaret Herkimer b. Abt 1733 NY.
. . . . . . . . . + Hendrick Frey
. . . . . . 2 Anna Maria Herkimer b. Abt 1735 NY.
. . . . . . . . . + Rev. Abraham Rosenkranz
. . . . . . 2 Anna Herkimer b. Abt 1738 NY.
. . . . . . . . . + Peter Ten Broeck ( Loyalist )
. . . . . . 2 Catherine Herkimer b. 10 AUG 1739 NY.
. . . . . . . . . + George Heinrich Bell ( Sponsored for Philip Young and Mary ) ***
. . . . . . 2 George Herkimer
. . . . . . 2 Johannes Herkimer

------------

The Rosenkranz's ( many ) children are documented so there is no mistake here. General Nicholas Herkimer, the oldest son, left no children, and none of Johann Yost's other sons is old enough to have been Mary's father. But things get even stranger, because who should turn up in this same Herkimer family tree but "George Henrich Bell", yet a third sponsor of Philip and Mary's two children. George Henrich Bell was married to Han Yost Herkimer's youngest daughter Catherine and was a Captain during the Revolution:

"Captain George Henry Bell, believed to be son of Frederick Bell, married a sister of General [ Nicholas ] Herkimer and was a man of considerable note in the revolution. He was well educated and wrote in a neat, compact hand with much rapidity, we are told in an account of him in the old history of the Mohawk Valley. Although not among the officers of the militia appointed in 1775, he commanded a company at the battle of Oriskany and was wounded. In later years he was pensioned for this service. He remained on the field with General Herkimer until the battle was over and he took charge of the escort of the wounded commander, who was borne on a litter for thirty miles. Captain Bell brought a gun from Oriskany, taken in a hand-to-hand fight with a British officer whom he killed. The gun was kept as a memento by his family for some generations. He served in Colonel Peter Bellinger's regiment from Tryon county and also in the Fourth Regiment in the revolution. (See pp. 182 and 271, "New York in the Revolution"). During and after the war he was a justice of the peace."

( http://www.accessgenealogy.com/scripts/data/database.cgi?file=Data&report=SingleArticle&ArticleID=0014858 )

So perhaps George Henry Bell ( son of Frederick Bell, son of Johann Friederich Bell of Burnetsfield ) arranged for his father-in-law, Han Yost Herkimer, to be a sponsor at the christening of Philip and Mary Jung's second child – in other words, an outside connection to the Herkimers? Or did Philip and Mary have other connections to them?

As to the fourth sponsor, "Elizabeth Franck(in)", her identity is less certain, but having gone through the Stone Arabia records she would appear to be either Captain Conrad Franck's daughter Elizabeth who married Captain Frederick Fox ( son of Johann Christophel Fox ), or else Johann Christophel Fox's daughter who married Frederick Franck ( son of Captain Conrad ), i.e. a brother and sister Franck with the same names married a brother and sister Fox with the same names. These trees are:

------------

A. CAPTAIN CONRAD FRANK

1. Johann Conrad Franck [ children taken from will of 1771 ]
. . . + Anna Elisabeth Ittig
. . . . . . 2 Friedrich Frank b. Abt 1742 NY.
. . . . . . . . . + Susanna
. . . . . . . . . . . . 3 Maria Catharina Franck b. 09 FEB 1762, chr. 17 FEB 1762 (RDC).
. . . . . . . . . + Elisabetha Foxin 16 NOV 1762 (RDC).
. . . . . . . . . . . . 3 Anna Elisabetha Franck b. 06 SEP 1763, chr. 21 SEP 1763 (RDC).
. . . . . . . . . . . . 3 Pieter Frank b. 17 OCT 1764, chr. 17 OCT 1764 (RDC).
. . . . . . . . . . . . 3 Maria Catharina Franck b. 03 DEC 1767, chr. 07 FEB 1769 (RDC).
. . . . . . 2 Timothy Frank b. Abt 1744 NY.
. . . . . . . . . + Anna Elisabeth Bellinger 05 JUL 1764 (RDC).
. . . . . . . . . . . . 3 Maria Franck b. 25 MAY 1765, chr. 04 JUN 1765 (RDC).
. . . . . . . . . . . . 3 Anna Margretha Franck b. 05 MAR 1767, chr. 29 APR 1767 (RDC).
. . . . . . . . . . . . 3 Son Franck b. 21 OCT 1768, chr. 15 NOV 1768 (RDC).
. . . . . . . . . . . . 3 Anna Eva Franck b. 16 DEC 1770, chr. 26 JAN 1771 (RDC).
. . . . . . 2 Conrad Frank b. Abt 1745 NY.
. . . . . . . . . + Gertrude Myers 26 AUG 1765 (RDC).
. . . . . . . . . . . . 3 Anna Franck b. 24 DEC 1765, chr. 07 JAN 1766 (RDC).
. . . . . . 2 Elizabeth Frank b. Abt 1746 NY. ( Sponsored for Philip Young and Mary = ? ) ***
. . . . . . . . . + Frederick Fox
. . . . . . . . . . . . 4 Friederich Fox b. 17 OCT 1764, chr. 17 OCT 1764 (RDC).
. . . . . . . . . . . . 4 Elisabeth Fox b. 16 SEP 1766 (LTC).
. . . . . . . . . . . . 4 Anna Elisabeth Fox chr. 22 SEP 1768 (RDC).
. . . . . . 2 James Frank
. . . . . . 2 Johannes Frank
. . . . . . . . . + Eva Franckin 16 FEB 1766 (RDC).
. . . . . . . . . . . . 3 Maria Catharina Franck b. 02 MAR 1767, chr. 29 APR 1767 (RDC).
. . . . . . . . . . . . 3 Stephanus Nicolaus Franck b. 22 APR 1770, chr. 23 JUN 1770 (RDC).
. . . . . . 2 Margaretha
. . . . . . 2 Anna Frank
. . . . . . . . . + Johannes Fox Abt 1776 NY.
. . . . . . 2 Maria Frank
. . . . . . 2 Eva Frank

------------

B. CHRISTOPHEL FOX ( son of Johann Peter and Anna Margaretha Fuchs )

1 Johann Christophel Fox [ children taken from will ]
. . . + Catherine Bellinger Abt 1738 NY.
. . . . . . 2 Frederick Fox b. Abt 1740 NY.
. . . . . . . . . + Elizabeth Frank
. . . . . . . . . . . . 4 Friederich Fox b. 17 OCT 1764, chr. 17 OCT 1764 (RDC).
. . . . . . . . . . . . 4 Elisabeth Fox b. 16 SEP 1766 (LTC).
. . . . . . . . . . . . 4 Anna Elisabeth Fox chr. 22 SEP 1768 (RDC).
. . . . . . 2 Elizabeth Fox b. Abt 1742 NY ( Sponsored for Philip Young and Mary = ? ) ***
. . . . . . . . . + Friedrich Frank 16 NOV 1762 (RDC).
. . . . . . . . . . . . 3 Anna Elisabetha Franck b. 06 SEP 1763, chr. 21 SEP 1763 (RDC).
. . . . . . . . . . . . 3 Pieter Frank b. 17 OCT 1764, chr. 17 OCT 1764 (RDC).
. . . . . . . . . . . . 3 Maria Catharina Franck b. 03 DEC 1767, chr. 07 FEB 1769 (RDC).
. . . . . . 2 Johannes Fox b. Abt 1744 NY.
. . . . . . . . . + Anna Frank Abt 1776 NY.
. . . . . . 2 Mary Fox b. Abt 1747 NY.
. . . . . . . . . + Nicholas Oxner 06 JAN 1767 Stone Arabia, NY.

------------

Christophel Fox's daughter Elisabeth was "Elisabeth Franck" by the time that Philip and Mary's first child was christened – but "Elizabeth Franck" might equally have been Conrad Franck's daughter using her maiden name. If either of these are to be treated as a potential sister of Mary, Elizabeth Franck nee Fox seems to be ruled out by the fact that her sister Anna Maria married Nicholas Oxner. Conrad Franck's daughter Maria is mentioned in his will of 1771 but is otherwise unaccounted for. But perhaps Mary was neither a Franck, nor a Fox, but a Bell?

Anyway, after following up all these leads I now believe the most likely candidate for the father of Philip Jung is a Johann Friedrich Jung who owned land not only at Canajoharie but also on the Johann Jost Herkimer Patent at Minden Township, was a justice of the peace, married Catherine Schumacher, the widow of Melchior Bell ( brother of George Henry Bell ), in 1762, this being probably his second marriage, and was a soldier in the French and Indian War and apparently was also in Butler's Rangers. Some confusion arises in that Clifford A. Young places this Frederick ( or at least aspects of him ) as a son of Hendrick Young, whereas David K. Faux has this Frederick as a son of Theobald Young. These ( three ) analyses run as follows:

------------

1. Clifford A. Young on Johann Frederick, son of Hendrick Jung:

------------

2-6 Johan Frederick, birth date not found, was probably born in the Mohawks country after 1722. He married Catharine Schumacher widow of Melchior Bell, March 18, 1762. They had Dorothy, born January 26, 1764. It is possible that this might have been a second marriage for both. It also seems quite probable that Dorothy was named for her Aunt Dorothy, wife of Jacob Young, Sr., of Fort Plain, Johan Frederick Jung was sponsor for John Frederick Hess, born May 10, 1731 to Johann Hess and Anna Margaretha (Young) Hess, his sister. [ . . . ]

Johann Frederick Young married Catharine Schumacher (widow) March 18, 1762. (Probably a second marriage by both).

Child:

Third Generation

3-1 Dorothy, born January 26, 1764.

( http://www.fortklock.com/junghendrick.htm )

------------

2. Clifford A. Young on Johann Frederick, son of Theobald:

------------

FREDERICK YOUNG

Frederick Young appears to have been the second son of Theobald and was born about 1720, before the Palatines left Schoharie and settled in the Mohawk Valley. In the land patent of 14,000 acres, bearing his father's name, Adam Young's name appears next to the elder's [ Theobald's ] name and Frederick third and Andreas fourth. Unfortunately, the birth dates of Frederick and Andreas have not been found, and no record has been located which would indicate that Frederick ever married. The records do show that he resided on land in the Ames section, south of Canajoharie.

He was a man of considerable prominence among the early settlers, being highly connected with the Tryon County officials to the extent of being honored with important offices and a large land grant. The Tryon county records show that in 1773 Frederick Young was elected by Governor Tryon's Committee as one of the Justices of the county and a road commissioner. [ . . . ]

As previously stated, the name of Frederick Young appeared with his father and brothers in the original Theobald Young Patent. The partition deed, which includes a map of the patent indicates that Adam and Andreas each drew three lots in the patent, but the name of Frederick Young does not appear. This tends to prove that Frederick was more interested in Canajoharie affairs and never lived in the Kyle or German Flats area.

Frederick Young Patent.

In 1765 Frederick Young and others were granted the 20,000 acre patent which bore his name and was located in what became Otsego and Schoharie counties. A copy of the patent, on file in the Division of Land of the Secretary of State's office in the Capitol, Albany, says that it was granted by the Crown through "Witness our trusty and well beloved Cadwallader Golden, Esquire, our Lieutenant Governor and Commander in Chief of our Province of New York at our Fort in our City of New York, the Eleventh day of October in the year of our Lord 1765, and of our Reign the fifth."

The patentees were Frederick Young, Cornelius TenBroeck, Adam Young, Hendrick Mathias, Johannes Kesselaer, Andries Young, Nicholas Oxiner, Francis Johnson, Christian Frolic, Robert Leonard, Elias Bailey, Theobald Young (probably Jr.), John Carman, John Ja. Glen, John J. Cuyler, Abraham Yates, Jr., Simon Groot and Jonas Southerd.

This tract was originally purchased of the "Native Indian Proprietors" on the 9th day of June 1761.

A further record on file in the Department of State shows that Under date of May 14, 1767, nearly all of this patent was released by the above named persons, Frederick Young acting with "Power of Attorney". His address is given as "Canajoharrie". The names Hendrick Young and Jury (George) Schrembling are mentioned as having a certain interest. The patent was released to Anthony Van Dam.

The foregoing proves the identity of this Frederick Young as a son of Theobald Jung, Sr., and a brother of Adam, Andreas and apparently Theobald, the younger brother. George Schrembling was a brother-in-law of Adam Young. The identity of the Hendrick Young mentioned is not clear. The Palatine immigrant, Hendrick, would have been at least seventy years of age, if living at this time, and Hendrick, son of Adam, was not born until 1762. [ . . . ]

( http://www.fortklock.com/jungfrederickyoung.htm )

------------

3. David K. Faux on Johann Frederick, son of Theobald:

------------

13. Frederick4 Young (Theobald (David)3, Andreas2, Johannes1) was born 1733, and died 1777 in Ft. Niagara, New York, USA. He married Catharine Schumacher 18 March 1762 in Stone Arabia Reformed Dutch Church, Stone Arabia, New York, USA. She died Aft. 25 August 1777.

Notes for Frederick Young:

Frederick Young was a local Justice of the Peace for the Canajoharie District, and held the title of "Esquire". He was active in the "family business" of land speculation, He obtained the Frederick Young Patent, and had extensive holdings in the Livingston Patent (about 20,000 acres total) on the South side of the Mohawk River (YF) - although his primary residence appears to have been the 250 acre parcel of land adjacent to that of his brother Adam in the Bleecker Patent (CJY). At some point he learned to speak the Mohawk language as it was recorded that he was the translator during the land transactions leading to the Theobald Young Patent (see details in biography of Theobald Sr.). In 1777 he was forced to leave his home, and with his nephews John and Daniel, joined the Indian Department at Ft. Niagara, attaining the rank of Lieutenant. He participated in the Battle of Oriskany in 1777; and died at the garrison of Ft. Niagara in the same year - cause of death unknown (CAY; CJY). On 20th August 1796 letters of administration were granted to "Daniel Young nephew of the late Frederick Young who died intestate in 1777", and Angus McDonald (AO, GS 1, Surrogate Court, County of Lincoln, Register 1, microfilm copy at the St. Catharine's Museum, St. Catharines, Ontario).

Children of Frederick Young and Catharine Schumacher are:

41 i. (son)5 Young, died 1779.

Notes for (son) Young:

The name of Frederick's only son is not a matter of record.

42 ii. Dorothy Young, born 26 January 1764.

More About Dorothy Young:

Baptism: 29 January 1764, Stone Arabia Reformed Church, Stone Arabia, New York, USA

( http://www.davidkfaux.org/DescendantsofJohannesJungInt.htm )

------------

Given that the only aspect of Hendrick's son Frederick that Clifford A. Young separates out from Theobald's son Frederick compared to David K. Faux's account is the marriage to Catherine Schumacher and the daughter Dorothy, the three accounts above probably all pertain to the same individual, i.e. Frederick son of Theobald. There are reasonable arguments either way as to whether Anna Margaretha Jung who married Johannes Hess was a daughter of Hendrick or Theobald, and while she is probably a daughter of Theobald, proof of this is complicated by the fact that Theobald and Hendrick were probably, if not brothers, then cousins from the same Dunzweiler Jung lineage and with ties to e.g. the Timmermans.

"Theobald and Hendrick Young were naturalized in Albany in 1716 (Schoharie being then in Albany county) [ note that they were also naturalized one after the other on the same day, even though naturalization was not alphabetical – curiously, however, their surnames are given as "Jung" and "Young" respectively, perhaps meant to indicate that they were not related in a 'brothers' sense? Uncertain. ] The records do not indicate that any other Palatine emigrants bearing the name Jung (Young) went from the Hudson Valley with their families to Schoharie besides Theobald and Hendrick. In about 1722 these two Jung families migrated from Schoharie to the Maquas (Mohawks) country, with many others from Schoharie. They apparently took up residence in the vicinity of Canajoharie, as the Stone Arabia patent was almost immediately thereafter granted to Palatines; and in 1730 Col. Philip Schuyler of Albany, a land owner in the Valley, deeded to Hendrick Young 703 acres of land between what is now Palatine bridge and Nelliston; in 1732 the said Hendrick Young deeded the same land to Stephanis Groesbeck of Albany, and Theobald Young witnessed the signature of Hendrick Young. (See copy of deed elsewhere)."

( http://www.fortklock.com/jungtheobaldyoung.htm )

If Frederick was indeed married prior to his marriage to Melchior ( Melger, Melchert ) Bell's widow in 1762, Philip ( who probably married 1763 and evidently also had Bell / Herkimer connections in 1764/5 ) would certainly be a candidate for his son. This necessitates a birthdate of 1726 at the latest for Frederick, and I am unsure as to whether anything provides a definitive date for him ( Clifford A. Young gives a date of about 1720 for this, David K. Faux about 1733 ). Frederick occurs after Adam Jung ( b. 1717 ) in a list of Theobald's sons, and seems to have been the second most well-off if not the most well-off of the Jungs in the area, so assuming Frederick Jung's birth to have been around 1720-1722 would probably not be unreasonable.

The only other Jung in the area with ties to Johann Jost Herkimer and the Bells is Frederick's brother Adam Jung ( e.g. in a 06 MAY 1767 list of officers serving in the 1st Grenadier company of Johann Jost Herkimer Esquire, Lieutenant Adam Jung occurs directly after Captain George H. Bell ), but Adam Jung's family having been so extensively researched at this point I doubt that a son Philip will have been missed, and thus suspect Frederick. A lot of searching will have to be done to substantiate that Frederick Jung was previously married to other than Catherine Schumacher, whom he married at about age 40, but these are the Philip Jung / Mary connections as they stand at present.

In other news, some people have apparently expressed doubt with regard to certain of my earlier claims, so here are some clarifications as to why I claim what I have.

1) Re: Doubts as to who are the parents of John, Frederick and Henry

The Early Dockstaders post is structured like a play-by-play of my thinking from each decade to the next. I can no longer even consider the possibility that these are sons of Hendrick because a) there is only one Hendrick on record; b) there is no evidence for a first marriage of George Adam, or for his having had children at age 11, and consequently c) why would Georg the settler have named two of his sons, born about 1714 and 1720 respectively, both "Henry"? d) there is no evidence for a marriage of Henry to Catherine Van Antwerp. The Van Antwerps were from Schenectady. There were none in Stone Arabia even in the 1760s. They were wealthy fur trappers. Henry Dochstader sold eggs to William Johnson. Nothing places Van Antwerps in Burnetsfield and nothing places Dochstaders in Schenectady, so how did Henry Dochstader meet Catherine Van Antwerp? e) with Henry3 of Caistor no longer a son of Henry2 ( who has his own son named Henry H. ), that leaves only Jellis Dochstader and maybe one or two other Dochstaders who might just as easily have been children of the Henry who married Catherine Weber – IF there is something to link these Dochstaders to a father named Henry. Surnames get mixed up in legend, legends are often pulled out of nowhere. George Adam2 is the best fit for a parent of these three: John3, Henry3 and Frederick3. The Henry2 Dochstader who actually existed already has entirely different sons named John3, Henry3 and Frederick3 and I rather suspect that people would not name six of their children using only three names if they have less than 30 children and can avoid this.

2) Re: John Stevens UE is / is not the father of Elizabeth Stevens

As I see it the birth records for Elisabeth Young, Philip Young, and John Stevens Junior, as well as the record of John Stevens' marriage to Mary, at the Stone Arabia Reformed Church, the same church attended by Dochstaders and Youngs, speak for themselves. The date for Elisabeth Young is off by one year ( or possibly not? ) and two days. Philip Young was regarded as Stevens' stepson in Home District. As well, the older genealogies seem always to have given Elizabeth Stevens' name as "Elizabeth (Young) Stevens" for some reason. If Elizabeth was 16 when she married Frederick Dochstader, and she never married anyone named Young after that ( which she didn't ), then what on earth could be the source of this name? Evidently it came from her real father.

3) Re: Claims that John Stevens UE is *not* the son of Arent Stevens of Schenectady

I beg to differ. First, let's look at the Old UEL list. There are 4,194 entries in the Old United Empire Loyalist List. Of these 4,194 entries, only 5 people are listed as an Interpreter. These are:

– La Forge, Vincent.... Interpreter to Six Nation Indians

– Price, David.... Home District, Indian Interpreter, wife 1 child, P.L. N. 1786

– Richards, John.... Marysburg & Sophiasburg, Lieutenant Indian Department, Interpreter, L.B.M. 1791, 2000 acres, stamped book, P.L. 1786, sons Daniel; John Jr, Petition 1794, a boy, discharged, Sergeant, never did duty, page 242 & Owen, a boy, discharged a Sergeant, 2nd Batt. R.R.N.Y., never did duty & last son John Ritchie? of Ernesttown

– Stevens, John.... Home District, Butler's Rangers or Forrester's Interpreter, Niagara stamped book, wife 4 children, P.L.N. 1786

– Stevens, Nicholas.... Interpreter Indian Department

"Forrester's Interpreter" can only mean "Indian Interpreter", especially in connection with Butler's Rangers, but evidently, and for whatever reason, John Stevens did not want to be associated with the word "Indian" and instead went with "Forrester's Interpreter", a circumlocution. However the fact that two of the five interpreters, out of 4,194 entries, have the surname Stevens, of which there are only eight people named Stevens on the whole list, means there is about a 1000 to 1 chance that these individuals are not related. Nicholas Stevens also settled in Home District and is known to be a son of Arent Stevens, who was of the famous line of Stevens interpreters in New York State. Coincidentally, Nicholas Stevens had a brother Johannes Stevens christened 1736 at Schenectady whose death is not recorded at the parish ( i.e. about a 50% chance he did not die young ) and is otherwise unaccounted for. Is it not then quite likely that a John Stevens, who was an interpreter living at Home District, who along with one other man named Stevens, these being two among only five individuals, among 4,194 entries in the Old UEL List, who are registered as interpreters, and who, were he brothers with this other Stevens, would have had access to the same interpreting experience growing up as a son of interpreter Arent Stevens, was not also the son of Arent Stevens, son of Jonathan Stevens, interpreter, who married Lea Van Slyck and interpreted for the Six Nations?

Re: Why is it not then known that John Stevens of Stamford was the son of Arent Stevens?

Probably because John Stevens UE did not want this information known. It sounds incredible but yes, there are things that ancestors did not want you to know, and more importantly did not want their neighbours to know. To have any First Nations ancestry in white society at this time was incredibly stigmatizing, so if people could instead make up a story like e.g. "we're French", that's what they did. That John Stevens of Stamford did not write and mass-produce an autobiography called "I am John Stevens, son of Arent Stevens of Schenectady" does not surprise me. It is also worth noting that interpreters in particular were not regarded favorably by whites or by the Six Nations, cf. e.g.

http://www.iroquoisdemocracy.pdx.edu/html/interpretor.htm

Note that Wraxall's opinion of Stevens is biased in that he was a competing interpreter at this time, but it is no mystery that Arent Stevens was regarded by many as infamous.

In any event I am still convinced that there are First Nations ties in this Dochstader-Young line ( evidently in the Young portion thereof ) because with regard to interpreters there is a very specific pattern of marriage that repeats itself. John Stevens' grandfather Jonathan Stevens of New England married Lea Van Slyck because they were both on the fringe of Schenectady society and were regarded as outsiders. This is not to say that they were not wealthy or respected, but the Dutch definitely had a tendency not to marry a) the English, who had conquered New Netherland; and b) the Interpreters among them who were Mιtis. Jonathan Stevens was one of only six English heads of household at the Schenectady settlement when he married Lea Van Slyck, a widowed Mohawk Dutchwoman, the daughter of a fur trader. Their son Arent married the daughter of William Hall, an English soldier stationed at the garrison who had married the widow Van Gyseling nee Claas ( born in America, ancestry totally unknown ). Others in the line married into the Vieles and Van Gyselings, who had earlier intermarried with the Six Nations and were interpreters, traders, tapsters, smugglers, etc. This happened again and again. So the question in Stone Arabia, 1767, is: when Philip Young died, why did his widow Mary marry, of all people, John Stevens, a community outsider and an Indian Interpreter?

4) Re: Your results are inconsistent with what book / writer / genealogist X has to say on the matter

Here I will discuss my methodology. To do genealogy well you need always to assess three things:

1) People
2) Odds
3) Motive

The first is the "who". The next two are the "why", and these are the ones that are most important because if you don't ask "why" then all you get are superficial answers and a bunch of false ancestors. Anyone can look up who might have been a parent of someone according to legend, or how much land someone owned in the U.S. according to their land petition, but these are not necessarily true. "Odds" let you first know where you are likely to be right and where you are likely to be wrong given demography, ethnicity, age, and other considerations.

What are the odds that the two Stevens in the above list are not related? Low. What are the odds that a John Stevens of Stone Arabia, the only Stevens in the area, married the widow of a Philip Young, had a stepdaughter named Elizabeth Young born virtually the same date Elizabeth Young ( Stevens ) is said to have been born, a son John Junior, and a stepson Philip Young, at the same church that Dochstaders and Youngs of the Indian Department and Home District attended, and that this would then *not* be John Stevens UE? Low. What are the odds that a teenager was put in charge of 500 men at Currytown? Low. What are the odds that a man had two sons named Henry who survived and were born four years apart? Low. What are the odds that a man was born in New Jersey but indicated unassumingly throughout his autobiographical memoir that he was born in Vermont? Low. All these things with low odds can probably be made to make a lot more sense if one goes back and looks at the sources. The odds are ( if we are not living in a world of the utterly fantastic and mysterious ): John Stevens of Stone Arabia is John Stevens of Stamford, Lieutenant John Dochstader was not a teenager at Currytown, there was only one Henry Dochstader in the second generation, and John DeCew was born in Vermont, i.e. the mass genealogy of the DeCews from 1910 got it wrong, not John DeCew.

The third thing listed, Motive, establishes what is likely to be true and what isn't. In the Revolutionary roster where Lieutenant John Dochstader's age puts his birth c. 1750 to 1751, we have the person ( "John Dochstader", the easy part ). We then need to consider the odds. Can John have carried out the deeds that he is known to have carried out if he were this age? The answer is yes. Next we turn to Motive – would John have had any reason to give false information in this document? Here nothing raises our suspicion. There is nothing like a promise of more land in the future for people who are older, etc. If he were underage or a teenager then "20" would have more than sufficed to make him an adult. More importantly, the document contains many other individuals and is not meant solely to be an assessment of John. Therefore he probably gave his age truthfully in this document to the best of his knowledge. But later when it comes to e.g. documents where John makes claims in Upper Canada based on how much land he owned in the U.S, there is now a motive for him to give false information. This is certainly not to say that he did ( John is merely the example being used here ) and even if he did it would not make him an inherently dishonest person, but you have to take into account that at this time in history if you claimed to have owned more land in the U.S, then you were compensated for more land in Canada – that's how it worked. People made false statements in this respect particularly because land acquisition was viewed as a victimless crime ( i.e. "the victim is the government who will just give the land to some other white settler anyway" ). When there is "motive" in scenarios like this, one has to be able to discern what is likely to be true, what is only possibly true, and, more importantly, what is untrue.

Another example – what motive can John DeCew, or his sons, have had for writing that he was born in Vermont if he wasn't? None, at least that I can fathom. Therefore, why would it be a lie and/or an extremely strange mistake in an otherwise lucid narrative? In all likelihood it isn't. That anyone has automatically ascribed this New Jersey / Vermont discrepancy to a failure on the part of the author himself and/or his children to know where he was born, rather than to a mistake in a mass genealogy compiled in 1910 by two American DeCews who might just as easily have gotten just about everything about the Canadian lines wrong, blows me away. Two people who knew nothing more about John DeCew than what they knew about 600 other individuals with the same surname know more about John DeCew than John DeCew? What are the odds of that.

The DeCou genealogists of 1910 probably got it wrong because the Canadian lines were not their lines and so they lumped and duplicated everyone to make the entries fit. For example, how is Edmund DeCew the elder of Thorold apparently known to have had something like "X number of children" in the DeCew genealogy if Edmund's wife is not even known? How did they find out who the children were if they didn't even know who the wife was? Doesn't this seem suspicious? Might the compilers of 1910 not just as easily have reduplicated everyone on the basis that "surely Jacob DeCew Senior, who has descendants in the U.S, was not a loyalist who died in Canada"?

So, that's my commentary. If anyone can refute these claims then they are welcome to do so, because if something's wrong then I want to get it right. But a good refutation involves more than just pointing to something written by a genealogist and saying "see?" It depends on being able to make things make sense in line with original and objective documentation such as e.g. parish records, census records, and land deeds. Mass genealogies are good as guides, but due to their size they always contain errors ( including mine ) so an entry should never be taken at face value without independent research by the person using it. Genealogies of this sort provide you with a good overview, because the compiler will have a better sense of "who's who" than most, but compilers cannot devote eons of research time to every single entry or nothing would ever get published. Thus it's still up to the user to verify the details of a given entry for him/herself.


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