Re: Stamford Royces and UK Royce Demography
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In reply to:
Re: Stamford Royces and UK Royce Demography
H. B. Whitmore 4/30/06
Indeed, the race is on – I'm particularly curious now to see what turns up. Good luck to Hal and to all ( the more independent lines of research, of course, the merrier )
http://www.touruk.co.uk/lincs/lincs_stam.htmhttp://www.touruk.co.uk/lincs/lincs_stam.htm
It will ultimately be of interest to see how closely Robert Royce ( and his Y-DNA ) tie into the macro-East Midlands lineage, since he is now squarely at the geographic centre of all UK Royces. It will be important too to figure out how many Rutland-Lincoln area Royces have the same Proto-Royce-Ancestor as Robert, and thus how indicative Robert's Y-DNA signature is of descent from him versus descent from other Royces in the region. Given the high concentration of Royces in the East Midlands of England, there may well have been only a few Patriarchs or possibly even just one.
If any Royces whose ancestors other than Robert of CT are known to have come from this region ( or who are currently living in this area ) would be willing to report on whether their Y-DNA matches that of Robert, it would be informative with regard to how far back these regional links may go, and helpful also in charting Royce ancestry in the region. As I understand it The Edmund Rice Association has obtained only a few samples for either name in the UK, and as a result has not yet been able to guesstimate how distinct the DNA profiles of Robert Royce and Edmund Rice are. ( Royce DNA is subsumed under Rice DNA study, since there are ten times as many Rices in America as there are Royces, just as in the UK, and the two names have a tendency to switch back and forth ). The reconstructed Robert Royce Y-DNA signature is
14 23 15 10 15 16 11 13 11 14 12 32 15 08 10 11 11 25 14 20 26 11 14 14 15
http://www.edmund-rice.org/haplotype.htmhttp://www.edmund-rice.org/haplotype.htm
Descendants of Robert Royce of CT living today, three or four centuries later, will show this same pattern with on average about one mutation, i.e. one of the numbers moved up or down by one. If anyone named Royce living in the UK has this signature ( plus or minus a few mutations, I'm not a geneticist but I would imagine maybe three or four at the most since the advent of permanent surnames c. the twelfth century and maybe one or two more to undo any unshared mutations undergone by Robert's direct ancestors since Proto-Royce ), they will have the same Proto-Royce Ancestor as Robert of CT.
The Edmund Rice site notes that members of this Y-DNA group, Group 3, "are identified as male-line descendants of Robert Royce (c1606-1676) of New London, CT. Five of these have been traced back to Robert Royce with reasonable certainty by conventional means, seven others tentatively, seven are not yet documented, and three others were previously thought to be descendants of Edmund Rice." If Robert Royce's Y-DNA profile is at all widespread among Royces of the East Midlands, it would then mean that an identifiable Robert-Royce-like profile may only indicate descent from an as yet unknown East Midlands-Royce Proto-Ancestor rather than directly from Robert ( though naturally the American lines are more likely to be descendants of Robert given founder effect ). Thus it will also be a good idea to chart all Royces in the Midlands region ( relatively speaking there are not that many Royces in the UK, though there are still a lot ) and I have already started this in so far as the IGI allows for ( probably about 40-50% of historical Royces from the 1500s forward are in the IGI batches ). Any insights from UK Royces regarding how widespread Robert's Y-DNA profile might be in the UK, or whether anyone there turns up this signature, would be highly informative.
Finally, if anyone named Royse / Royce is descended from the Royses of County Limerick, Ireland, I am very interested in what your Y-DNA printup looks like. As far as I can tell these Royses descend from Rev. Thomas H. Royse ( 1704-1747 ) of Nantenan / Nantinan House, Rathkeale, County Limerick. He was an Anglican minister in the parish and may well have come with his family from England since the name Royse in the early years occurs nowhere other than ( sparsely ) in Rathkeale and Wexford, and there is no record of this family in the Irish Landed Gentry books. Thus, RSVP any Royces / Royses from this line.
"On Wednesday last a proclamation was issued by the Lord Lieutenant and council Proclaiming a reward for taking and apprehending Hugh Fitz John Massy of the co of Cork, Gent, John Boucher Gent and Michael Scanlan the younger of Ballykelly in the co of Limerick, James Currane, and Timothy Cromeen, for forcibly carrying away of Frances Ingolsby, spinster, from the house of the Rev Thomas Royce of Nantenan in the co of Limerick and likewise feloniously taking several arms from said house."
( Pue's Occurrences, Dublin, November 26, 1743 )
More Replies:
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Re: Stamford Royces and UK Royce Demography
Charles Julian 5/03/06
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Notes on Edmund Rice
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Re: Notes on Edmund Rice
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Re: Search for Robert Royce
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Re: Search for Robert Royce
H. B. Whitmore 7/29/06
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Re: Search for Robert Royce
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Updates
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Re: Updates
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Re: Search for Robert Royce
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Re: Search for Robert Royce
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Re: Search for Robert Royce
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Re: Notes on Edmund Rice
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Notes on Edmund Rice