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Re: Tunstalls of Thurland Castle, England
Posted by: John Sladen (ID *****1372) Date: June 15, 2004 at 15:08:09
In Reply to: Re: Tunstalls of Thurland Castle, England by Patrick Moran of 805

Thanks for your reply Patrick.

Indeed I have heard Burke referred to as 'the father of lies' and Oscar Wilde in his own inimitable style once said of Burke's Peerage "it is the best thing the English have done in fiction." Nevertheless recent editions are based upon the respected academic work 'Complete Peerage' and are far more reliable!

It's probably just as well that Wilde and other wits aren't around anymore to let loose on Charles H Browning's work if the example you quote is anything to go by. To illustrate this lets look at some relevant dates mentioned in 'Complete Peerage' and based on Charter evidence.

For a start it is almost certain that Margery de Welles was the sister and not a daughter of John 5th Baron Welles. This is because she had married her second husband Stephen 2nd Baron Scrope by 15 December 1376 if not earlier (as her son Henry 3rd Baron Scrope was born about 1373), and the earliest date for John 5th Lord Welles' (born 20 April 1352) marriage to Eleanor Mowbray is sometime before May 1386. There's no way, even in Medieval England when people often married before their teens, that a man born in 1352 could have a daughter who had married for the second time and given birth to a child c 1373! To sum that up, thats like being born and becoming a grandfather in the space of 21 years!

However, if you DO consider that to be possible, this son Henry 3rd Baron Scrope, born c 1373, was beheaded in 1415. We know the precise date for his marriage licence to Philippa de Bryan, widow of Sir John Devereux. It was 11 July 1398. She died childless on 19 November 1406 and he remarried in 1410 to Joan de Holand, a four times married lady who also died childless. Henry le Scrope was succeeded in the Barony by his brother John. Yet the descent you quote makes him father of Joan le Scrope, wife of Henry 2nd Baron FitzHugh.

Even ASSUMING Joan was the daughter of Henry 3rd Baron Scrope (born c 1373) we find another problem - namely the fact that Joan le Scrope married Lord FitzHugh around September 1350 (and their son Henry was born c 1358). There's no way a man born c 1373 could have a daughter who married around 23 years BEFORE he was born!

The Joan le Scrope who was grandmother of Eleanor FitzHugh was in fact a daughter of Henry 1st Baron Scrope (born 29 September 1312, died 31 July 1392). I could find no definate royal descents for this Joan.

However I have found another descent for Eleanor FitzHugh from King John via his illegitimate daughter Joan who married Llewelyn Prince of North Wales, this via the families of Mortimer, Verdun and Furnival (the latter noted in passing in yesterdays post). Also a descent from Dermot MacMurrough King of Leinster in Ireland. If you're interested in these I'll post them sometime.

I've only just begun to look into the early Tunstalls, having found no less than five Tunstall ancestresses - a Katherine who married Sir John Pennington on 28 April 1412 ; an Elizabeth who married Robert Bellingham about 1425 ; her sister Alice who married Thomas Parr about 1430 ; their niece Joanna who married Sir Roger Ward and Sir William Stapleton (both ancestors); and an unnamed daughter of a Marmaduke Tunstall who married Robert Franke about 100 years earlier. Talk about inbred.....

And as if that's not bad enough I'm descended from Eleanor FitzHugh via all three of her marriages.....

Anyway, hope this is of some interest.

All the best from John.


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